Swedish interviewer - Recorded by Bill Russell
Recorded on tape by William "Bill" Russell at Mahalia Jackson's home in Chicago, July 26, 1955.
Audio: © Hogan Jazz Archiv - Tulane University
Unfortunately, the name of the Swedish reporter is unknown.
Reporter
"I sing because I'm happy"; is that right?
Mahalia Jackson
Yes, that's right, and I'm happy!
Reporter
I can see that when you sing.
Mahalia Jackson
Oh yes
Reporter
And you can hear it. Well, why are you so happy?
Mahalia Jackson
Well, music makes the soul happy. And I think I sing all the time, and it keeps my mind happy.
Reporter
So you sing at home too?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh yes! I sing when I cook, when I do housework. I sing so much that sometimes my neighbors come over to listen. So I just sing. It makes me happy. It helps me carry the burdens of the day.
Reporter
What do you like singing most?
Mahalia Jackson
I have a number of songs that I like to sing. Some songs for certain moods I'm in. Well, I like to sing this particular song. When I'm in a sad mood, I sing a song with a tear in my eye. And when I'm happy, I sing a song with a lot of beat and rhythm, like "When the Saints Go Marching In," "Keep Your Hands on the Plow," "Didn't It Rain," songs like that. They're happy songs, you know. And I just sing them at home until I sing my blues away.
Reporter
You like to sing these songs with a beat, don't you?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh yes, yes
Reporter
One more thing about your songs. They are all religious songs, aren't they?
Mahalia Jackson
Yes, they are. Well, I'm very religious, I should say, myself. I'm religious in the sense that I sacrifice myself and use my voice for nothing else but singing religious songs. I have a kind of voice that people say has a blue note. And what I mean by a blue note is that it has American music, like we call the blues in America, you know. Well, in other words, it has that cry in it. It has a kind of heart, you know. And of course, all the bands want me to sing the blues or the popular songs. So I'm, as some people say, very—I'm overly emotional. So I sacrifice myself and only sing religious songs! Honestly, OK, I don't think I can really sing the blues the way they think I can. I might sound like I can, but I don't think I can. I just love singing these religious songs because they're part of my life. I believe in what I sing. I believe in these songs. They've done so much for me. And that's why I sing them, because they've done so much for me. And I like singing them because they help other people.
Reporter
You sing in church too, don't you?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh yes, I sing in churches, and actually, that's where I started.
Reporter
In which ones?
Mahalia Jackson
Actually, I've been singing all my life. Down in New Orleans, I come from New Orleans, you know. It's known as the home of jazz in America. But people down there also have a religion. I started singing in church when I was four or five years old.
Reporter
Well, then you really did sing in church. Tell me, when you were growing up, was that the only singing you heard? Or did you listen to the blues? Or jazz?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh yes, I couldn't help but listen to it. I knew all about Louis Armstrong and "Papa" Celestin, I'd seen them all my life. And "Kid" Kelly and Bugk Johnson and all the others. I knew all these people, and I met them. And they went to church too, that's why they can play those religious songs, like "When the Saints" and what's the other one called? "We Shall Walk the Streets of Glory," and uh, "Just a Closer Walk with Thee," and "By and By When the Morning Comes," because they grew up with it. There aren't any big differences in music. All music is basically the same. There are only 88 keys on the keyboard, so the difference isn't that big. But the difference in music is, for one thing, the reverence for God. And the other thing, well, you could say it's for the devil. But some people just sing when they're happy, maybe folk songs. You know, they come around, like down in New Orleans, you know, in the winter we used to be out on the levee, I think that's the right word, I think it's called a levee. But we were always on the levee, which is the high mound of earth that separates us from the Mississippi and protects us, you know? And we sat out there on the levee near the railroad tracks. The Mississippi, the levee, and the railroad tracks. And we just made up songs. They weren't bad songs, we just made them up to amuse ourselves. We weren't rich and couldn't go to nightclubs or anything like that. So we sat there as children, made up songs and sang around the fire. And we ate popcorn and candy canes and things like that. We had a wonderful time.
Reporter
Tell me, do you still write songs?
Mahalia Jackson
Yes, I write most of my own songs.
Reporter
That's very interesting, that's why I asked you.
Mahalia Jackson
I can't read a single piece of music.
Reporter
No ?
Mahalia Jackson
No, I don't know how to do that. Um, I don't know how to read music. I've never had a lesson in my life. But I listen to music. I can hear it. And when I hear it, I sing it like that. And people think it's okay.
Reporter
You can see that when you sing, can't you? You close your eyes and you kind of "listen inside yourself." And you can see, and you can understand very well, that you are listening to what you are going to sing. But it must be quite difficult to make music and also arrange music, as I see it, if you can't write. How do you approach that?
Mahalia Jackson
Well, you can hear it. You can hear it, and you... um. Like my piano player, she can read music now. She can read from sheet music and all that, but she doesn't, she can't hear what I hear. I can, um, I hear this music. And I go to her and say, I go to her and hum it (humming). And she says, "Do it again, do it again," until she can finally hear it on the piano.
Reporter
Is that how it's done?
Mahalia Jackson
That's how it's done. (laughs) That's the way we do it. Then there's another way, like when someone writes a song and the song sounds empty, without feeling. You know, some people write music that's so dead that you only want to hear it in a graveyard. You know, I say, "Oh! You can do a lot with that song." So, um...
Reporter
Then just do it.
Mahalia Jackson
Yes! I walk on and hear something. Maybe she's up there playing the notes, playing the piano. And she says, "Oh, isn't that beautiful?" "Yes, but it's empty." Like someone brought me a song the other day and tried to turn it into a prayer. And he tried to make it half classical. So I said, "Well, it had a bit of a beat to it, then it had a bit of something sacred.
But it wasn't sacred enough to mean anything. So I just changed it and gave it some real swing. (sings: batt dah dah dum dum bee batt bah) See, that's the song. I didn't mention the name of the song because it's not mine. (laughs) But that's the melody we used. It just had to sound good, you know? I had the bass going. (sings: bum bee bee bum bum bah bum bum buh). See? And we kept going with the song, and it went pretty well. And we sang, and we rocked, you know, moved our bodies like that. And that's how these things are done.
Reporter
Tell me, I read somewhere that Bessie Smith meant something to you.
Mahalia Jackson
Well, down south, in New Orleans, where I was born, I didn't have a chance to hear the great singers like Roland Hayes and, um, Grace Moore, Lilly Pond, and all those great singers until I came up north to Chicago. Well, we had a chance to hear the blues. Because that's the kind of music you hear down south as soon as you get off the train. People in the South have a radio or an old phonograph that's just as loud, and you can hear the blues. They know that the blues was born in the South. And they don't mind playing it, and they're not ashamed of it. And everyone... that's one thing about people in the South, they love the blues and they play it.
Because all of America loves the blues. And of course we got the opportunity to hear more of Bessie Smith. And I guess that's why so many people say I sound like Bessie Smith. I suppose I do. She was a great singer. It's an honor to sound like her, but I don't think I sound as great as Bessie. But since she's dead, they give me the honor. This is the living Bessie Smith. (laughs)
Reporter
You wouldn't say that you learned directly from listening to Bessie.
Mahalia Jackson
No, no, because time passes so quickly. I have lived here in the north for more than 25 years. Now I have had the opportunity to hear the best singers on the radio, on television, and in the big concert halls here. I have heard some of the best artists, but I still think Bessie is a great artist. But I learned a lot from her time.
Reporter
We've talked a little bit about rhythm before. In your singing, rhythm seems to be really important. Rhythm really is the heart of music, isn't it?
Mahalia Jackson
That's right. Yes, that's right.
Reporter
Do you think it helps to have an audience that reacts more physically?
Mahalia Jackson
Sure! I don't like singing for those long-haired people who look like they can't be moved by music. I believe that every living soul should be touched by music in one way or another. Not everyone is as emotional as I am. But I like it when people have a beautiful smile on their face when they listen to music.
Reporter
You don't mind if people clap their hands?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh no! No, no, no. I think you should.
Reporter
You've traveled a lot, haven't you, Mahalia?
Mahalia Jackson
Yes, I've traveled everywhere. I've been all over the United States, and of course I've been to Europe—to your part of the country in 1952.
Reporter
Yes?
Mahalia Jackson
And I was so well received there! I sold quite a few records in Denmark, and over in Paris and England. The people were very nice. I remember going to Denmark for one night. And I stayed there for five nights. And oh my God, in Paris, you know how they are. They just love music! The Danes are also very nice.
Reporter
You had a lot of success in England, didn't you?
Mahalia Jackson
Yes, I did. But I didn't think I would... I think the success was wonderful for my first time there. I had about 5,000 people, but I'm used to having huge audiences in America.
I thought that the Royal Albert Hall should have been filled to its 10,000-seat capacity. But the producer, or rather the sponsor of the program, told me that he thought it was okay to get 5,000 people for someone performing in England for the first time. In Paris, at La Salle Palais, I think that's the right name for it, it was sold out two nights in a row. And they were absolutely wonderful. And then I traveled through various cities in France.
Reporter
So you spent some time in France?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh yes, I was there for six weeks. In Europe. Six weeks.
Reporter
Are you going back there?
Mahalia Jackson
Well, I'm doing local television work now. And I want to see—I'm close to getting this job in television from coast to coast. And if I get it, I won't go back to Europe, of course. But if I don't get the job, I'll probably go back to Europe, maybe in October.
Reporter
I hope for Europe that you leave again.
Mahalia Jackson
Oh, I like going there, the people are so nice.
Reporter
Where would you go if you went to Europe?
Mahalia Jackson
Well, I know I have to go back to the places where I first started. I have to go back to Denmark. Oh my goodness, I had about, um, oh, I think I had about 8,000 people there. But there were 4,000 on that one—I forgot the name of the place. But on one night there were 4,000, and on the other night the church, the Holy Ghost Baptist Church, had about 2,000 seats. And that church was about 2,000 years old. I was really amazed. I was able to sing in a church where people came to worship God 2,000 years ago. Oh, it was so wonderful for me! I couldn't get that church out of my head.
Reporter
Are you going back there?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh, just to stand there again. It's beautiful.
Reporter
Where else would you go?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh, I would... next time I go back to Europe, I'm going to make it my mission to stay there for about six months. I just want to... I want to see all the historical things there. It's the old world, you know. And it's so different from ours. Everything over there means so much! Every building over there is dedicated to something great that someone did before them to make this world great, you know? It taught our new world the beautiful way to live. And every time you look at one of those buildings, you know that someone great was there. They look like you've stepped back in history.
Reporter
Are you planning to go to Italy, for example?
Mahalia Jackson
Oh my God, yes, I have to go there.
Reporter
I believe you said you were once in Palestine?
Mahalia Jackson
Yes, I would like to go to Jerusalem. It has always been my wish to be in Jerusalem at Christmas. You know, my Christmas song "Silent Night," which is a European song, has sold thousands here in America and in Europe. And it was the best song I ever sang. I was there during the cold weather. I was there in October/November. I've always wanted to be there since that beautiful song was written, and I know that the song was written not far from Bethlehem. Someone told me the story about that song. But I have so much to think about that I can't remember it now. But someone said that the composer lived not far from Bethlehem. And I would love to be in Jerusalem on Christmas Eve.
Reporter
I was wondering. (Unfortunately, the recording is unclear.)
Mahalia Jackson
Yes. Earl Hines, Duke Ellington, Lionel Hampton—all of them.
Reporter
You don't want to?
Mahalia Jackson
No
Reporter
You don't think it would be right?
Mahalia Jackson
I do. I really do. Because I have this feeling. No matter how idiosyncratic a person is, they feel that they have a higher being that is superior to them. And they always want to be able to fall back on this something as something that lifts them up, and it's not that kind of work I do. It's not just something for entertainment. It's an uplift. It's a revival of humanity. When the human spirit is down, we turn to the divine. When you think about it, you don't have to close the door on that.
Reporter
Now I understand very well what you mean. And I think it's wonderful that you will sing the songs you sing. And we hope that we will hear many, many more songs from you. We want to hear you sing many, many more of your beautiful spirituals.
Mahalia Jackson
Oh, I love singing spirituals too. Well, I don't know. I think a lot of the late American ballads that are out there, like "I Believe" and "His Hand." That's one of my late records on Columbia. I'm with Columbia Records now. I was with Apollo for two years because I had a record there that opened doors for me to do these big concerts. Well, it was an old script that I revived, with a twist. Gospel singing had just started to get that swing. And I was the person who started that swing in gospel singing. You know, it was like a lot of dead music. It was sung as if everyone was dying and going to a funeral. But then the choir director sang it. But I always found that the congregation always radiates joy during the service and sounds better than the choir.
Reporter
They sounded just as good?
Mahalia Jackson
Yes, I've noticed that it comes from the heart when people sing it. And the choir always sounds dead because the choir director or the person who wrote the music took all the feeling out of it and made it scientific instead of making it real. So I didn't like the way the choir sang, and I started singing the way I heard people sing in church and at home. When I left the South and came to Chicago, I started singing that way, and a lot of people who had left the South and were living in Chicago heard that way of singing and liked it. And so it became popular and spread everywhere.
Reporter
What was your very first song?
Mahalia Jackson
The song I came from New Orleans with? We sang the old song "Daniel Saw the Storm." You can hear the choir singing it, with a lot of awkward notes in it. You know, but I didn't... I sang it... (sings) "Oh Daniel saw the storm and he headed up the mountain.... (repeats) ...came down.... "It was simple, and people could understand it. I started singing and everyone in the church: (she sings the chorus)...sopranos...altos...all the basses together, without any training. And it came from their hearts.
Reporter
It must be wonderful to sing with such spontaneity.
Mahalia Jackson
Yes. I don't like it when people sing too formally. I like to relax. (A train whistle can be heard in the background.) If we started singing that now, I bet people would come over to us. You wouldn't need to tell them which voice was singing, because their voices would automatically join in.
Repoerter
II'll tell you one thing: when I first came to you and we started talking, I thought for a moment that, in your opinion, ... had come to life. (Unfortunately, the recording is unclear.)
Mahalia Jackson
Yes, people want to stay alive, that's true.
Reporter
I felt so much better when I left you.
Mahalia Jackson
Oh, isn't that wonderful!?
Reporter
On the way home, I almost got lost on the street...
Mahalia Jackson
Oooh. (laughs)
Reporter
Well, I think we've had enough now. Don't you agree?
Mahalia Jackson
Well, let me put it this way: this new world we live in is tired of frowning. People want to live. They want to enjoy life. They don't want to go to church and be part of a service. I get the whole congregation singing—not just the choir. Everyone should sing the song. I don't care if it sounds good or bad, it's their song. And they feel good when they try to sing their song.
Reporter
I think that's a wonderful idea.
Mahalia Jackson
Do it yourself. Go out and sing yourself, dance yourself, and you'll feel better. Won't you?
Reporter
That's right.
Mahalia Jackson
I think so. I find myself, and when you go to church, you just sit there and listen. Be a part of it... (Unfortunately, the recording is unclear).
Ende der Aufnahme
The warm welcome and love of music
Mahalia Jackson is deeply impressed and grateful for the positive and warm welcome she has received in Europe. She mentions Denmark, Paris, and England as places where she has enjoyed great success. For her, the reception in Europe is not only a professional achievement but also a personal affirmation. She describes the people there as "very nice" and praises their openness to her kind of music. Particularly noteworthy is how she describes Parisians as people who "simply love music." This suggests that she has found an audience in Europe that appreciates her art regardless of cultural or linguistic barriers. The fact that she stayed in Denmark longer than planned underscores how comfortable she felt there and how strong the demand for her concerts was.
Respect for history and culture
Jackson's view of Europe goes far beyond just concerts. She sees Europe as the "old world" and shows deep respect for its history and culture. She emphasizes that she would like to stay for six months on a future visit to see the "historic things." Her statement that "every building over there is dedicated to something great that someone did before to make this world great" reveals her admiration for European heritage. She sees these historical sites as a source of wisdom and learning that "taught our new world the beautiful way to live." For her, Europe is not just a place for concerts, but a living museum that laid the foundations of modern civilization. This shows a reflective, intellectual curiosity that goes beyond the purely musical.
The Spiritual and Sacred Europe
A particularly moving and profound aspect of their European tour was their concert at the Holy Ghost Baptist Church in Denmark, which she estimates to be around 2,000 years old. This experience touched her deeply and has "stuck in her mind." The idea of singing in a church where people "came to worship God 2,000 years ago" was "so wonderful" to her. This experience connects her personal mission of spiritual singing with the long history of faith in Europe. It illustrates that her concerts were not just performances for her, but acts of worship that placed her in a spiritual continuity with the people of the past. This aspect is crucial to understanding her conviction that she is using her voice for something higher.
The connection to her songs and the desire for Jerusalem
Mahalia Jackson's fascination with Europe is also linked to her own music. She mentions her Christmas carol "Silent Night," which is "a European song" and has sold thousands of copies in America and Europe. This shows the musical bridge she builds between the continents. Her personal connection to this song is so strong that she wishes to be in Jerusalem on Christmas Eve, as she believes that the composer lived not far from Bethlehem. This wish illustrates how deeply her spirituality and her music are intertwined. For her, these places are not mere tourist attractions, but sacred sites that bring the stories behind her songs to life.
Pragmatism and planning for the future
Despite her deep affection for Europe, Mahalia Jackson is also a pragmatic businesswoman. She weighs up a possible return to Europe against the prospect of a television show in the US. This shows that she is planning her career carefully and does not want to miss out on opportunities in her home country. The fact that she is making her decision dependent on a potential television job shows that she recognizes the importance of mass media in spreading her message. She hopes to reach an even larger audience with her music.
Conclusion
Mahalia Jackson's unique view of Europe is a mixture of personal gratitude, intellectual admiration, and spiritual connection. She saw Europe not only as an economic springboard for her career, but also as a home for history, culture, and faith. Her reflections reveal an artist who thinks beyond the purely musical and sees her concerts as part of a larger dialogue about human values and spirituality.
©Thilo Plaesser